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64 Responses to “Builders & Doers vs Whiners & Trolls”

1. Dustin Diaz says (on June 12th, 2006 at 5:08 pm )

   I do believe that there are many more whiners and trolls out there than builders and doers.

   Nevertheless, even if I think I’m a builder, it can be very easy sometimes to fallback and be a whiner because it’s the easy way out. Blech.

2. Women@Sun says (on June 12th, 2006 at 5:59 pm )

   Vitamin: …

   Which category do you fall into?

   Feature: Builders & Doers vs Whiners & Trolls

   contact@thinkvitamin.com (Carson Systems Ltd) Jun 11, 2006

    -  Show original item

   Ever since I started Carson Syst…

3. Jonathan Phillips says (on June 12th, 2006 at 6:30 pm )

   Most every design school, of whatever type, uses the “crit” system as a pedagogical device. The most respected academic journals use anonymous peer review (in lieu of editorial review) as the basis for selecting articles. These institutions allow for all types extraneous and erroneous dialog to occur, but they persist because they also more closely approach democratic discussion.

   In a public crit in my second year of architecture school, a fellow student described the facade of my design as looking like a gumball machine, a troll-like comment if there ever was one. She took the design as a philosophical threat, representative of a then fashionable brand of postmodernism, something about which ironically I understood nothing at the time. It was the decisive moment in my education, because it was then that I fully comprehended that design is about ideas, and that the “crit” — however torturous and incoherent — is ultimately about democratic discussion.

   In the 1920s, social critic Walter Benjamin pointed out the possibility of democracy that technology affords. The real threat to the democratic potential of technology is not some type of monopoly or dictatorship (e.g., Microsoft), but rather a totalitarian consensus that limits the universality of the medium. It’s an elitist censorship that poses the real threat, irrespective of the fact that the elite may be correct and that they believe their censorship is for the good of the cause.

   I can find no sociologically sound concept of democratic discoure that would exclude whiners and trolls. There’s no fine line between trolling and critique. It’s not even a continuum. They’re just loosely correlated.

   I don’t wish to impugn the author of this piece, rather to point out a danger inherent in the subtext, whether it was intended or not. There’s no way to critique any part of this piece without being a troll. I am implicated by a tautology within the article itself, which disturbs me much more than the content of the piece. (After all, who likes a troll and who doesn’t like a doer?)

4. Francis Scully says (on June 12th, 2006 at 7:06 pm )

   True, very true. I’m probably in the troll category, I think; and so I’ll attempt to show the hidden vagueness behind this article as it applies to the internet & civilization itself ;)

   Just because someone builds something, doesn’t make it a good thing in the long run for anybody… Look at the dot com bubble burst… Look at vehicles & carbon dioxide; as a whining troll I’ve spoken my mind freely on global climate change.

   Yes, others build various vehicle models that are “more sustainable”, but that’s really spin for calling it “less destructive.” I could lay out about 1500 different reasons (really!) as to why civilization itself is in some rather MAJOR delusions on where we stand as a human race, but then no one would read that because it’d be 10 trillion pages long :)

   There is always going to be levels of destruction, that is unavoidable in the way existence is set up. But it’s the job of the whiners & trolls to help improve the odds that something is built right, because no matter how much whiners & trolls wish it to be so, so many of us are not gifted with the means to build. What is the W3C other than trolls & whiners everytime they send out a press release! Sure, you can say that the entire platform they created was, in and of itself, a process of building, but so is my 10 trillion page rant against civilization :)

   There is some level of interdependence in both builders & whiners. Now, …that’s not to say that all whiners are not gifted with the ability to transition to being a builder. There-in lies great leaps of evolutionary improvement in both the web of the internet, as well as the web of life! Sadly, I happen to not be one of those.

5. Aaron Schmidt says (on June 12th, 2006 at 7:57 pm )

   This post sucks … I could have written something better in my sleep! I’d write something better right now if I wasn’t so busy fixing other people’s bugs and ranting on my blog.

6. Francis Scully says (on June 12th, 2006 at 8:12 pm )

   There’s also the real possibility of whiners whining against whiners who pretend to be good builders. Now, I don’t mean to spill sour grapes (insert cheesy laughter here), but you mean to tell me that global climate change could destroy civilization as well as the 10 million other complex biological creatures on this planet that make up the food chain, …and your first priority is to fix other people’s “bugs” in some decrepid website that is likely to go down in history as relatively unimportant? I could send you my 10 trillion page rant to try and motivate you out of this decision, but you’ll likely not read it because you have no humanity whatsoever…

7. Aaron Scully says (on June 12th, 2006 at 8:53 pm )

   How do you know theres only two types of people in the world, that seems a little presumptuous.

8. DottoreNova says (on June 12th, 2006 at 9:00 pm )

   the least you can do is read “the art of thinking” by Allen F. Harrison and Robert M. Bramson before you start judging on how people are. Not everybody thinks in the same way you do nor me everybody has his or hers way of thinking.

9. Sean says (on June 12th, 2006 at 10:08 pm )

   Wow, look at all the people already getting their backs up about this article! I think that already proves that it’s more accurate than a first glance indicates.

   It goes to show that the life of a whiner is one of comfort. Not a whole lot of pride, perhaps, but that comfort is undeniable. When that lifestyle is challlenged, one’s first thought is to defend it. Even if you don’t think like a whiner, or regularly act like a whiner, at this moment you sound like one.

   I think some commenters miss the difference between constructive critcism and whining. Whiners say “this sucks. that’s stupid. this thing is bad.” Doers suggest something better. If you want to see the pollution situation changed, support gas stations that are using cleaner fuels, as well as alternative means of transit. If more people do that, more money goes into those who care about the environment, and we may actually see some serious change.

   This article was both reaffirming and eye opening for me. This philosophy closely mirrors one I’ve had for a long time: when faced with a problem, I believe we have 2 choices: either deal with it, or adjust our attitudes to accept it. Anything else is counterproductive. Even so, I’ve realized that I’ve been sitting on the fence between troll and doer, and that’s doing me no good. Time to get me a new set of shackles. I sincerely thank you for providing the words that may very well serve as a catalyst for some serious personal change.

10. Adam Wintle says (on June 12th, 2006 at 11:41 pm )

    — [Quoting Aaron Scully] —
    How do you know theres only two types of people in the world
    — [/Quoting Aaron Scully] —

    I think Ryan’s categorization of these types of people is such a broad analysis that everyone has to be in either of the two — You either take control and responsibility for your life, or fall back and don’t make your goals happen…

    — [Quoting Aaron Schmidt] —
    This post sucks… I could have written something better in my sleep!
    — [/Quoting Aaron Schmidt] —

    Why does the article suck?

    —————————-
    I feel I’m at a point in my life where it’s all down to me, wanting to make websites for a living, ultimately running my own business, but currently working in a shit job as a till clerk — I think so many people are in similar situations — I/we know that I need to work harder towards my ideas and dreams. I’d say i have traits from both types, I’m a bit Builder/Doer and a bit Whiner/Troll; I tend to have more ideas and talk but do less to make it real. But i feel I’m hard working and always looking for opportunities.

    Ryan, do you have any more advice to those like me?

11. Shanti Braford says (on June 13th, 2006 at 12:03 am )

    @Adam - I think Aaron Schmidt was being ironical.

    Ryan - great points. It’s a touch subject I believe many don’t like to bring up, just in case they are around people who might feel self-conscious because they know deep down that they are really part of the whiners & trolls group. =)

    Jason Calacanis also had a great post on this same topic a while back.

12. Philip Wilkinson says (on June 13th, 2006 at 12:41 am )

    You could also add:

    Elephants & Mammoths - people who want to change and do something but lumber along without making any real progress. Put them in a herd of like minded animals though and watch them run!!

13. Francis Scully says (on June 13th, 2006 at 12:46 am )

    Got the link wrong, this is the correct one. I also forgot to give out my email.

14. Eric Meyer says (on June 13th, 2006 at 1:51 am )

    Yep. As I once said:

    “What’s so interesting to me is that the guys who decided to focus on the positive went out and did something; those who want to mix in the negative seem to have nothing to offer except complaints.”
    (http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/11/social-protocols/)

    There’s definitely utility in constructive criticism, but I know I take much more seriously the criticisms (and, in general, the opinions) of people who have actually done things. And I often find that those who have are usually respectful of others’ efforts, and that they have a more positive perspective–they’d rather improve the future than rehash mistakes of the past.

15. tripdragon says (on June 13th, 2006 at 2:00 am )

    And then there are people that write to much, and post to many blah blah blah posts about fixing something with no real answers… Just monkey talk..

16. RyanA says (on June 13th, 2006 at 3:15 am )

    I think I wander back and forth between the two categories on a monthly basis :)

17. Carolyn says (on June 13th, 2006 at 4:06 am )

    I don’t think this article has much to do with the question of the role of criticism in democracy. Ryan isn’t saying “Never criticize,” he’s saying that many people criticize instead of doing. They are reactive rather than proactive. It really is a good question to ask ourselves about each area of life. Am I moving forward here or falling back? Is lack of action wise in this particular situation or just a stalling technique that has the same result as moving backwards? Do I whine when I see others achieve or do I use their success as inspiration for making changes/taking action in my own life? I wrote a book once and I was amazed because I encountered people who made comments like “Well, I could have written that book, but I have kids and don’t have the time,” or “I am more qualified to write a book like this.” The only difference between me and the hundreds of others who may have been able to write the book I wrote (or something similar) is this: I actually sat down and wrote it. Pretty simple. I’m sure there are other people who could have invented Basecamp, Dropsend, Vitamin and whatever else these folks have up their sleeves; the difference is that Ryan, et. al did it. The problem isn’t clear, meaningul criticism; when I wrote my book I asked over 10 people to go over the first draft as critically as they could. They were all “doers” and their critical comments were valuable to me. The problem is whining–that vain, fruitless type of criticism that is heavily laced with envy, self-pity and bitterness. We are probably all guilty to some extent. It holds us back in whatever area of life we cling to it, and generally only serves to hurt when we direct it at others.

18. Francis Scully says (on June 13th, 2006 at 5:58 am )

    Yes, but in the case of bringing down civilization, aren’t you glad I’m not a doer? lol; I’d put you guys out of a job… In fact, just by the sheer ignorance & lack-of-care some of you guys flagrant around, it actually might just help facilitate & quicken the process of me getting so angry, that I might just crack one of these days and actually help people take down this toxic civilization. Ever hear of NNEMP? No? Maybe that’s best…

    Also, just because someone points to a solution that is already in existence, doesn’t mean that the person pointing it out is useless or should stop pointing to it just because they didn’t invent it. No need to reinvent the wheel if the wheel is already sitting on the shelf in its complete form… Contemplate that.

    Here’s just a quick snippet, with large portions taken out so its more condensed… IE, …a “troll” writing too much:

    100,000 years ago, Earth was largely sustainable: rich soils provided food for plants, which fed animals, which fed predators. Omnivores and carnivores both provided nutrients back into the soil creating a harmonious, largely self-sustaining, cycle. Hunting many different animals to extinction was one of the first steps towards the loss of the Earth’s resources. Domestication of grazing animals and the use of fire gave way to the destruction of forests and creation of pasture. Agriculture followed, giving rise to the growth of civilizations. Sumer’s Tigris-Euphrates river system produced rich irrigated land; however, the land became eroded, and their civilization-span of 2,500 years, rose, flourished and then disappeared from history.

    In 1836, 38 year-old Baron Justus Von Liebig performed a study on plant growth and food taste. In his research, he discovered that the key elements nourishing plants were nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium. He then set out to “improve” soil by synthesizing those elements himself. At first his product was costly, but impressed farmers with improved crop yields. However, farmers quickly discovered that they needed more and more of his product in order to maintain the improved crop yields; and many went back to their old ways. However, 27 years later, his product was still playing a role in various agricultures; mainly as short-term fixes to improve soil fertility and agricultural college curriculums. In the 1860’s, the vast prairies of the American Midwest was starting to be used for farming; opening up a European agricultural struggle against the cheaper imports of American wheat and beef. This continued for 60 years, and by the 1930s, the land was so devastated, the topsoil was no longer held together by organic matter. Farmers around the world were so shocked at the results that the organic movement was born.

    However, another movement was born based on Liebig’s early chemical formulas in order to “improve” soil fertility of the now ravished topsoil. Laying down chemicals as a short-term fix was much easier than trying to save the land with organic techniques. Nitrates actually end up wiping out various nitrogen-fixing bacteria in the soil, encouraging the breakdown, in the long-run, of organic matter and humus; worsening the actual problem to new levels. When humus breaks down, water retention is reduced, and in result more irrigation is ultimately needed. Without humus, life in soil declines because nutrients are washed away. The soil turns acid, destroying more organic matter. Salts build up, and erosion quickens at up to 17 times faster. Rather than choose organic farming techniques because it required more work, we illogically chose the breakdown of civilization as we know it, and the land from which it feeds.

    Depleted soils require even more inputs of chemicals just to keep their yields up. Chemical fertilizers promote more weeds to grow, requiring increased herbicide applications. Herbicides find their way into water supplies, giving rise to increased cancer rates and hormonal changes in wildlife and humans that lead to birth defects, gender imbalance and developmental problems. Chemical fertilizers also promote fast but weak and sappy plant growth, leaving plants vulnerable to insect and fungi attack. Insecticides are then required just to save the crops. Insecticides then wipe out most insects, pests and pollinators, reducing biodiversity both above and below ground. Currently, about 5,000,000,000 acres of soil degradation have occurred, an area larger than the United States and Mexico combined. In the last 50 years the United States has lost approximately 55,000,000 acres to salination. Where industrial agriculture is utilized, 5 - 10 tons of topsoil per acre is lost to salination each year.

    It’s hard to believe that this cascade effect of agricultural deterioration all started with nitrates, and ultimately with Baron Von Liebig. He did come to terms for what he had done and later in his life wrote: “I have sinned against the Creator and, justly, I have been punished. I wanted to improve His work because, in my blindness, I believed that a link in the astonishing chain of laws that govern and constantly renew life on the surface of the Earth had been forgotten. It seemed to me that weak and insignificant man had to redress this oversight.” His best intention to improve the cycle of life, unintentionally worsened it to such a perfect degree, I wonder if it could have been done any worse. However, unlike Baron Von Liebig, none of the costs of these side effects of industrial agriculture are charged back to the perpetrators, and it is still occurring today at even worse levels than before. Have the majority of consumers become kamikaze nihilists, or just completely ignorant and faithful in wherever our collective actions will bring us, even if it means annihilation? Those that feel this system must be stopped are sometimes driven to kamikaze-like actions when they feel their democratic input is no longer democratic; many of us call them “terrorists.” Waves of fear are then hastened, to seek and destroy the terrorists to prevent them from “destroying” “freedom.”

19. Chris Heilmann says (on June 13th, 2006 at 7:35 am )

    I disagree. I just had a lot of builders fixing my balcony and they were all lazy, so this generalisation doesn’t hold up. :-)

    I’d be careful with the term troll. People who just comment “This is rubbish” are useless contributors, trolls are a bit different. A troll chooses to annoy and infuriate people and start flamewars.

    I’ve written an article in 2004 about the “army of spoilers” you encounter on the web called Survival in the online trenches. Not that much has changed since then, except that we have a considerable larger amount of people with half-wisdom teaching you about what you should do in your own comments (”It fades in and out! That IS AJAX!!!!!).

    I’ve just finished a chapter for one book, wrote another book, started a new job and got my flat repaired. On some mailinglist I appeared as what you would call a whiner and a troll. What am I?

    Sometimes whiners are needed, too, to stop new users from stalling a forum or list by asking questions and not understanding explanations that have been answered dozens of times and to stop the builders and doers from building things for the sake of it rather than to have a task to fulfil in mind.

    This leads to an interesting type of person: The whining doer that cannot stand any criticism - not even the justified type.

20. nortypig says (on June 13th, 2006 at 7:55 am )

    While I agree in a general sense - the old movers and shakers thing - its probably over simplistic. But I get your gist. In reality there are more segments than black and white or cops and crooks though so that’s why so many people have been bundling the bad vibes in the comments…

    the implication of the title being of course if you haven’t built a big company or a successful web 2.0 business then one should not whinge - our criticisms would be merely troll behaviour…

    but underlying is a simple enough truth that we can either move or not - do or not do things with our life. WaSP would be called whingers and trolls by quite a few you should be aware lol… and historically have been!

    i also find calling names can be provocative, such as putting people on trolls when they may not be or implying anyone who isn’t a success in this business (yet) is a troll. Interesting conversation. Hopefully not put in a whingey way but in a balanced social comment.

21. Ryan Carson says (on June 13th, 2006 at 7:56 am )

    How do you know theres only two types of people in the world, that seems a little presumptuous.

    I guess you didn’t read the whole article. At the end I said “Actually, I don’t believe that anyone is 100% Builder & Doer or Whiner & Troll. I think we all have the capability to be either.”

22. Faruk Ateş says (on June 13th, 2006 at 12:10 pm )

    In the 1920s, social critic Walter Benjamin pointed out the possibility of democracy that technology affords. The real threat to the democratic potential of technology is not some type of monopoly or dictatorship (e.g., Microsoft), but rather a totalitarian consensus that limits the universality of the medium. It’s an elitist censorship that poses the real threat, irrespective of the fact that the elite may be correct and that they believe their censorship is for the good of the cause.

    I.e., Google.

23. Ryan Carson says (on June 13th, 2006 at 12:14 pm )

    I think some commenters miss the difference between constructive critcism and whining. Whiners say “this sucks. that’s stupid. this thing is bad.” Doers suggest something better.

    Well said, Sean!

24. Dave Kinsella says (on June 13th, 2006 at 12:36 pm )

    A nice article that pretty much sums up my own attitude. Having spend many unproductive years as a whiner, I realised that I would only get somewhere by my own effort. I set myself a long term goal, devised a set of waypoints that could get me there and got to work. So far it’s worked well for me and even though I reached my original goals I’m now locked into a mindset where I’m always looking for the next opportunity.
    I get annoyed these days when I hear somebody whining about a problem rather than trying to find a solution for it. If you can’t do something constructive then stop wasting your own time by complaining about it - go and do something else.

25. Matt says (on June 13th, 2006 at 2:19 pm )

    Brav-o, Ryan.

    This article really lit a fire under my ass.

26. Malovech says (on June 13th, 2006 at 2:33 pm )

    The real threat to the democratic potential of technology is not some type of monopoly or dictatorship (e.g., Microsoft), but rather a totalitarian consensus that limits the universality of the medium.

    Actually I think it’s both of those things. You go to far in either direction and you end up with crap.

27. Jonathan Phillips says (on June 13th, 2006 at 2:56 pm )

    Faruk,

    I hadn’t thought of that when I wrote, but yes, exactly!

    Eline sağlık.

28. JMack says (on June 13th, 2006 at 3:13 pm )

    umm aren’t you whining about the whiners?

    guess we know what group you fall into fella ;)

29. Alan says (on June 13th, 2006 at 3:18 pm )

    I’ve heard that there are two types of people in the world– people that believe that there are two types of people in the world, and people that don’t……..

30. Dvord says (on June 13th, 2006 at 3:42 pm )

    My former manager offered me some great advice I have tried to use ever since.

    With every problem you identify, offer a well-thought-out solution.

    We see problems all around us, and we can be very quick to point the finger and find someone to blame, but if anything your influence is perpetuating the problem.

    This article, describes the problem, and offers solutions, thus I can’t see how the writing of it is Troll or Whiner-like, but rather is Building a solution, and the writing is the Doing.

31. Bob says (on June 13th, 2006 at 4:09 pm )

    Are you kidding me?!? Whiners make the world go ’round. Martin Luther King Junior, Mahatma Gandhi, Rosa Parks, Nelson Mandela - what do they have in common? - They are all WHINERS of the highest degree!

    Gandi whined about the salt tax in his provence, going on a walk to protest the unfair British tax. Rosa Parks whined about sitting on the back of the bus. Etc.. Etc…

    Without whiners, where would this world be? Without those to stand up and say, “This sucks. I’m not going to accept this. This system is broken. I’m just going to sit at the FRONT of the bus” - without that, we would have nothing but a world of “Doers” and “Movers” and “Shakers” who move, and shake with all their might to the tune of their own self over-exuberance…

32. Fay says (on June 13th, 2006 at 4:11 pm )

    What a great introduction to blogging! My hubby pointed me to this blog, and I found the original and subsequent comments to be articulate, artful, thoughtful and funny. Thanks for your inadvertent contributions to my education.

33. Gabe says (on June 13th, 2006 at 6:37 pm )

    Interesting article. Although some people can definitely fall more in one category than the other, I think some people can also be extreme builders AND trolls, or be kind of do-nothing-say-nothing people. I guess I would view the two aspects as loosely correlated, but mostly independent.

    Now, as to the point of valid criticism, I think the key is not to criticize something out of envy or spite. I believe the term for people who do this is ‘hater’. I can’t remember what blogger said recently, “don’t denounce good design work because its good.” Or something to that effect. If you’re trying to do something, and someone else comes along and does it a lot better the natural instinct is to be defensive. But objectively you are better off learning from great work than tying your undies in a knot over it.

34. Ed says (on June 13th, 2006 at 7:28 pm )

    Good read, very entertaining comments.

    I couldn’t agree more with the notion that the same person can be both Doer and Whiner. It’s easy to get down or sidetracked. Some parts of your life can be moving forward while others are stagnating. It’s complicated stuff.

    But the article wasn’t meant to be comprehensive — it was meant to be a call to action. We can all use one of those now and then.

    More than anything, I try to be respectful of everyone when I post a comment. The hope is that by being constructive, one becomes part of the “doing” process rather than a whiner. By the same token, it’s not uncommon for Doers (or self-professed Doers) to be dismissive (”What have you done?”). That attitude ignores the first premise stated — always look for opportunities. It’s not easy, to be sure.

    Thanks for the read, and thanks to everyone who made some funny comments along the way.

35. Nate says (on June 13th, 2006 at 8:40 pm )

    Excellent article!

    Honestly, I could categorize myself at times to be a whiner - but then I try to do an ego check on myself and smack myself. Its hard sometimes, especially with the profession of web developing. I have been humble and offered advice (even research) to some, and it simply goes ignored - I think its times like these when I turn into the whiner.

    However, I have realized that it doesnt really matter. It doesnt matter to me if they want to do things a certain way. What matters is that I PROGRESS in the work that I am doing. What matters is that I become a doer and focus on the tasks ahead of me instead of dwelling on smaller (often unnecessary) things.

    Great article (and wakeup call).

    Peace,
    Nate

36. dandyna says (on June 14th, 2006 at 11:00 am )

    I am the troll of myself.

37. Push Agency » Blog Archive » Builders, Doers, Whiners and Trolls says (on June 14th, 2006 at 2:55 pm )

    […] http://www.thinkvitamin.com/features/webapps/builders-and-doers-vs-whiners-and-rolls […]

38. Jean Thibaudeau says (on June 15th, 2006 at 8:07 am )

    Back againg, an excellent post on think vitamin. You guys are great!

    http://collaborativemarketing.blogspot.com/

39. The r-evolving web » Blog Archive » Builders & doers, whiners & trolls says (on June 15th, 2006 at 3:01 pm )

    […] Just catching up on my feed list and read this article on Thinkvitamin. Dividing people into 2 categories and summing them up as positive or negative. Either looking for opportunity and getting on with it or finding problems and reasons not to do something. […]

40. Lynred says (on June 15th, 2006 at 5:36 pm )

    The true businessman is always doing smething and knows what to do and above all is an expert at doing so.

    Trolls belong in fairey tales

41. Bernie Aho says (on June 15th, 2006 at 8:43 pm )

    This could also be true of customers or lack of customers…

    Sometimes whiners try to rally support against something they wouldn’t have bought anyway. Is that right or wrong? Not sure.. Sometimes they can be more louder or powerful then the satisfied people that dont say much because they are busy using your tool. We need both too..but the ones that try to make it the mission to take you down…I have seen a few companies that has had this done to them.

42. James says (on June 16th, 2006 at 2:01 pm )

    “Sure, some were lucky or had certain factors on their side…”

    I bet good ol’ Jesus had a little help.

    Decent article — while I try and shy away from typifying and generalizing, what you say about changing circumstance is true. Even if one did have a wife and kids depending on a paycheque, you still have to recognize that you have options — even quitting.

    Thing is though, I think we need to whine and complain a little. Just to vent at least and maybe recognize issues you might have. But it’s all about balance.

    It would do the world a lot more good if more people were focused on being “Builders & Doers.”

43. Gareth says (on June 16th, 2006 at 2:28 pm )

    Great article Ryan - have found the same myself, and generally with people wherever you go. More often than not it’s just laziness and lack of priority which gets in the way.

    As individuals I think we’re all a microcosm of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde - all we can really do is hope to improve a little bit every day and get on with things the best we can, without letting other people cloud our enthusiasm. When we lose optimism what’s the point? and when we lose the ability to ask questions and discover answers honestly then perhaps that’s the time when we really become whiners and trolls.

    Thought that Francis Scully’s point about how in our infinite wisdom as humans we’ve altered the earth hopefully for the better and in the process actually damaged it more than we can quickly fix it. Do we do the same to ourselves?

44. Ken Rossi says (on June 17th, 2006 at 11:17 pm )

    I am taking the time out to post a comment here…..to let you know that if you are part of the newstoday.com community….. you can go to the PVN…. find onyro psd thread…..

    a popular artist well known back in the day gives away some work on a full psd ….. http://www.onyro.com/teaser.html

    and everyone comes out and proceeds to bash that the work is tired and old….and why give it away?…..and he should clean up the psd…. etc…..

    Ryan, I commend you for this article. I appreciate your contributions to the software and design communities and I totally agree with everything you are saying. I know one of our products competes but I will never say anything negative and always foster a competitive and productive atmosphere.. Keep up the great work.

    I posted this article to the PBS I hope people on NT start to wake up and smell the coffee beans.

    If you would like to update your ignore list of trolls on Newstoday just find that thread….

45. Ken Rossi says (on June 19th, 2006 at 1:48 am )

    The negative will always be louder then the positive…. because the positive are too busy doing something with their lives to waste time talking about it.

    Just out of curiosity if you don’t like them…. why read them? If you don’t like vitamin stop coming here. Or is it that you just have to debate something that is working because you don’t understand why your life isn’t? You don’t understand how to make something succeed in your own life so you have to tear down the efforts of others.

    I am sorry if your life isn’t working out the way you planned but that’s not any of our faults. I beg you not to come here anymore…..

46. Ken Rossi says (on June 19th, 2006 at 1:52 am )

    congrats ryan, you are heading past the koolaid point

    http://headrush.typepad.com/creating_passionate_users/2005/08/physics_of_pass.html

47. Lynred says (on June 19th, 2006 at 7:26 am )

    thinkvitamin is a marketing machine

48. drjt says (on June 19th, 2006 at 12:58 pm )

    Is it not the case that individuals are allowed the notoin of realising their own faults?

    It probably is not a case of villifying the ‘whiners’ and congratulating the ‘doers’ more an appreciating of what works and does not for you and ltake it from there.

    To be told to be something you inherently are not is contrary to social development. Being oppressed/set free by said philosophies is not a genuine achievement nor is the reliance on others telling you how to organise your life into neat and manageable portions.

    On the basis of this it is hard not to add my own philosophy and each of you surely has the capacity to develop your own?

    Mistakes and failure should not be overlooked as an erroneous approach to life. Nor should self-righteous ignorance.

49. Torsten Liebig says (on June 19th, 2006 at 1:00 pm )

    With so many people trying to defend whining, here’s my suggestion why it is okay to whine: whining helps you to find out what dissatisfies you - the very first step of progressing.

    Unfortunately, a lot of people are to lazy to get their butts up after this point - now that you have found what you’re unhappy with, go ahead and actually *do* something about it. Don’t blame anyone for the situation (hell, not even yourself!) but rather look forward and see what you can do to improve your situation. There’s a lot of things you can do, I bet, the trick is to look forward as to where you could possibly be in a couple of years.

    I’m coming back to Ryan or someone from the comments at this point - take responsibility for what you’re doing, after all you are an individual who can stand on it’s own feet. You have the freedom to do most anything you want, but this freedom implies that you’ve got to decide what you’re up to - because it also means that no one is going to tell you what to do.

    So, go ahead an whine, and everybody else go ahead an comfort the whiners (because they need to know that the world will still go round tomorrow). But also tell them that they themselves have to take onto their problems, because no one else is going to do it for them. You can help them, and you’ll be glad to help them improve their situation, they just have to start themselves.

50. Dpinder says (on June 19th, 2006 at 9:43 pm )

    That’s why there is only ONE man in this world I listen to: my father.

    Sure, I’ll listen to others, but, when I am taking a risk, I only take heed to my fathers advice, who will never steer me wrong.

    I block out negative people and hang around positive people.

51. Paul H says (on June 20th, 2006 at 2:09 pm )

    One principle of The FISH! Philosophy is entitled ‘Choose your attitude’ and states ‘your attitude is your reaction to what life hands you, and only you can choose that reaction’.I think there are a few defeatist remarks in this post - “If you think your job is shit, find a new one?” and “If you are tired of the bugs in someone’s software, build a better system” to name but two. If I chose these paths during my career I would be forever flitting between jobs and rewriting stuff. I don’t think my boss would be happy knowing I’d spent three months rewriting a crap system when all he asked for were a few ’stick plasters’ to keep it ticking along!Choosing your attitude is easier said than done, especially when faced with challenging scenarios.

52. franki durbin says (on June 20th, 2006 at 6:10 pm )

    Ryan, this is a great article that needs to be read by everyone blogging, designing or building anything online. This statement sums it up for me, “take responsibility for your own attitude and circumstances.” You’ve summed it up perfectly for us. In my opinion (and it must be the “doer” in me believing this) it is relatively simple to stop being an observer in life: just get moving and “own” your behavior. It boils down to taking action and being accountable for yourself. Great article!

53. Diane says (on June 20th, 2006 at 11:25 pm )

    As an ex-Whiner & Troll, I can tell you that life is so much more exciting, fun and worth living as a Builder & Doer.

    More should have been said about this.

    How did you go from ex-Whiner & Troll to Builder & Doer? What precipitated the change? What concrete things happened?

    In my own experience, I have found that I am a poor judge of who actually really wants to hear a solution to a problem and who would prefer you just rant about it or keep quiet. And I have suffered rather painful consequences as a result.

54. Robert says (on June 21st, 2006 at 6:59 pm )

    Dope article! Really inspiring and what I’ve come to expect from Mr. Carson. I’m putting my inner Whinner & Troll in a straight jacket and throwing that motherfucker off a bridge. Thanks so much Ryan and keep it comin’

    Werd!

55. Stephen says (on June 21st, 2006 at 9:20 pm )

    –I guess you didn’t read the whole article. At the end I said “Actually, I don’t believe that anyone is 100% Builder & Doer or Whiner & Troll. I think we all have the capability to be either.”—

    Backpedalling at the end of a commentary is no way to state opinions. Sorry I can’t give the bravo for that or repackaging years of humanist thought into “doer” and “whiner”.

56. Stuart Robertson says (on June 23rd, 2006 at 1:56 pm )

    I’m glad you wrote this article Ryan! My brother and I were just talking about how many whiners and trolls there seem to be online. :-)

    Even if someone doesn’t feel they have things to build and do on their own, they can still choose whether they want to spend time commenting on things they dislike, or find things they DO like and offer their support and encouragement.

57. Ben says (on June 26th, 2006 at 4:24 pm )

    This is a good article. I do think there’s a big difference between being a positive hard worker and a lazy whiner and all those places in between. I was in a job last year where the situation became worse and worse for me. I was surrounded by people saying things sucked. They said the place sucked, they said my work sucked, everything sucked. I found myself going from a very hard working positive person to a person who had no confidence in my own abilities any longer, constantly whining about the situation and not motivated at all.
    I think that my job environment was the biggest factor at play here. I genuinely consider myself to be a hard worker, but I was becoming someone I didn’t like, so I quit the job and went somewhere new. I feel I am becoming the person I was before again. If you find yourself in a situation where you are being pushed to the negative side, change the situation or get out. :)

    I appreciate the article for the challenge of keeping the “troll in the cave”

58. Owan Hunte says (on July 20th, 2006 at 6:32 pm )

    OK I know I’m a bit late to the party, but after reading this article and the multitude of comments I just couldn’t help but put in my 2 cents worth. So here goes :-).

    First off, Ryan, I believe this to be a valuable article to anyone who is humble enough to accept it for what it is and nothing more.

    Many times in our lives one of the things that we fail to do most when hearing/reading one’s views on a sensitive/critical issue (and I do believe the topic of this article to be a sensitive issue for many) is to listen to what is being offered by the speaker/writer and see if and how any of what is said/written has any applicability to our own lives, thoughts, attitudes, or actions. Instead some of us are often quick to place our “defensive, don’t wanna hear any out-of-the-box kind of thinking, if it doesn’t fit into my current reality I don’t wanna hear it” attitude on high priority red alert :).

    Look guys and gals, I’m not trying to pick any sides here, please don’t misunderstand my position, my intention in this comment is to help get across the single most critical point that I can clearly see Ryan pointing out in this article:

    In life we are faced with countless challenges, obstacles, relationships, decisions, problems, and the list goes on. Each of these natural phenomenon affect us in some way, even if the effect is minimal. If the effect is one that we are not happy about, or it is one that shakes the very foundation upon which we have fashioned our own views, opinions and attitudes then we have a resposibility to ourselves to do something that can effect a positive and meaningful change in our lives.

    Now the above may been re-evaluating our own views, opinions and attitudes (note the key word here is may) in an objective manner. It may mean expanding our understanding of a particular subject, field, area, etc. It may mean soul-searching. It may mean having many heart-to-heart conversations with wifey or hubby, and the kids. Heck it could mean us having to do any number of things but what it almost always boils down to is that if we want change or something better, we have two choices: act or don’t act.

    I can relate to and understand where Ryan is coming from and where many of the persons commenting are coming from. There are many factors to consider when one looks at the core differences between one who is a “Doer” and one who wants to be a “Doer” but does not act. I myself have begun making the steps to achieve my dreams of being a successful entrepreneur and business owner and am constantly having to deal with the lazy, no-good, don’t wanna get outta that comfort zone, inner me. IT IS NOT EASY, I will admit to it. But it is important to understand when that inner you is just being a Whiner, and when it is, to SHUT IT UP.

    So I will end by saying this:

    Please, please, please, don’t just attack what the author of this article has written. Understand the point being made, it is a critical point that highlights a common fact:

    If you are not happy with your position in life, be it financial, spiritual, economical or social, then you have two choices -do something that positively changes your circumstances or do nothing but complain about your current circumstances. If you make the first choice you may find that you get a bit of help along the way, but it is up to u to make that first step.

59. Ken says (on July 31st, 2006 at 3:24 pm )

    To suggest there are only two types of people, suggests to me you haven;t put much thought into it. But after reading many of your articles, it’s clear that you excel in talking without saying anything. This entire site is one big shill!!!!!

60. Francis says (on August 3rd, 2006 at 10:32 am )

    This site shouldn’t have this content, as the article, is mmmmmmmm lacking depth and quality. I know what you’re trying to say, but its a bit one dimensional.

    I think you can write better content than this. Thats what Think Vitamins about right? food for thought.

61. JB says (on August 25th, 2006 at 10:09 pm )

    Not sure if I’ve got the quote exactly right (don’t have the book at my desk) but I think Tom Robbins said it best in Still Life with Woodpecker.

    “There are two kinds of people in this world; those who think there are two kinds of people and those who are smart enough to know better”

    I actually get a lot done because of people whining about one thing or another… Of course, I don’t really want to hang out at the pub with them.

62. John says (on November 1st, 2006 at 5:52 pm )

    I block out negative people and hang around positive people.
    Me too! Totally agree!

    Sometimes a coach can be helpful too. Anyway, get people around you that are supportive.

    Also: as a webdesigner you cant do everything alone, people with business skills are also necesarry!

63. Rosie says (on November 3rd, 2006 at 1:01 am )

    amazing!

64. illovich says (on December 10th, 2006 at 4:34 pm )

    I’m coming in really late (sorry, I was busy doing something =)… but I’d like to say, excellent article. Unfortunately, I think this kind of article is most useful to someone who was heavy on the whine/troll trip but has themselves recently come around to more positive thinking. Negative thinking feeds itself, and one of its earliest tricks is to insulate you from positive thinking–and that’s when you get stuck in a cycle of negative thinking. What is hilarious (in the sad way) is seeing the comments from the folks who just want to tear you down — tbecasue when you’ve just finished this article, their comments stick out like a sore loser. There’s tons of material on this basic idea, that I thought I’d mention–there’s even a type of therapy that in many ways draws from the same model that Ryan is talking about here - Cognitive Behavior Therapy, popularized by the book Feeling Good by David Burns. Thanks again for the article. =)